The talk turns to the dastardly Fox News, which gave a good review to Michael Moore’s new movie about the American health care system but just can’t get a break in regards to it’s coverage of Rosie.

***

Elisabeth: See I told you Fox was fair and balanced
Rosie: Did you watch what they said about me? Did you watch them this weekend?
Elisabeth: I was away for the weekend
Rosie: They said “Rosie O’Donnell thinks our troops are terrorists.”
Elisabeth: Hmm
Rosie: What do you think about that?
Joy: They said something like that on MSNBC too
Rosie: Did you watch it?
Elisabeth: No I didn’t watch this weekend- No I wasn’t here this weekend because I was in Boston with my brother
Rosie: But you were here when we talked about it. So do you think that that’s what I was saying in that conversation?
Elisabeth: Were they referring to- I’m trying to go back to the conversation
Rosie: Here’s what they said: “Rosie O’Donnell thinks our troops are terrorists”
Elisabeth: Is that because you asked the question “Who are the terrorists if 655,000 Iraqis are dead after we came in there and invaded a sovereign nation? I’m just trying to
Rosie: Yeah, that was the conversation
Elisabeth: maybe that they drew the link there- I don’t know
Rosie: They drew the link or they misrepresented what I said in order to twist it to make it seem what they want

***

People should go back and listen to what she said. She absolutely implied the American presence in Iraq represents terrorism to the Iraqi people. Rosie refuses to acknowledge that the terrorism in Iraq is instigated at the hands of the fundamentalist Muslims who want the US to leave so they can regain control of the country. American forces are not torturing and killing Iraqi civilians at the direction of George Bush. In fact, our troops are dying and getting injured because they are trying to clear the roads to protect the Iraqi civilians. Our troops are trying to safeguard the Iraqi government, which was elected by those innocent civilians. Our troops are trying to train the Iraqi police and military to defend Iraq from the insurgents who are acting on behalf of neighboring countries who fear freedom will take root in Iraq and thrive. (Rosie- Have you heard of Iran? Or Syria?)

They go on:

***

Elisabeth: So, so I would clarify it to them now because you have the opportunity cause I did read that a lot of people were thinking that you said that
Rosie: So you want me to say it again?
Elisabeth: Answer your own question
Rosie: I just think that it’s interesting that the network you support takes such joy in twisting my words and distorting them. I do no think our American troops are terrorists. I want our American troops home, able-bodied. I don’t want them to invade countries that have done nothing to us. I don’t want them to die at the hands of a republican administration that doesn’t care enough about them to give them healthcare (her finger up, shushing Elisabeth) when they return. I love our troops and will work for our troops and no matter what you say (several words were silenced) that’s the truth Change it around as you want
Elisabeth: Rosie, when you say, when you asked the question when you pose that question – what is the answer to that question then? Who are the terrorists?

***

Apparently, Rosie can not answer her own question because if she did, she would have to say what she thinks- which is
that this Republican administration is a terrorist group and that troops who are republican are terrorists and then by de facto reasoning, republicans in general who support the administration are terrorists. Rosie absolutely is clear in what she says- she just wants to say it in a convoluted way so that she can’t be quoted directly.

Many of the troops believe in what they are doing. They are not dying at the hands of a republican administration.

Her reference to the problems at the Veterans Administration hospitals point out a decades long problem that continues to worsen. She is right that the troops deserve better. The problem is that the government can not effectively run any program well. The issues at the VA should cause Americans to seriously think about what a government run healthcare program could be like. And they should vote against any candidate who wants to federalize healthcare.

Barbara wants to salvage the discussion. She should have left well-enough alone:

***

Barbara: Can I just say something because I listened the other day and I think that sometimes you are confusing the word terrorist, because you said “who are terrorists?” implying that the terrorists could be us, terrorists could be someone. What you really mean, I think, is “jihadists.” We are talking about a particular group of people
Rosie: I am talking about a word “Terrorism” that the administration has used to terrify this country
Elisabeth: No
Rosie: They are terrorizing Americans by using the word terror and taking away our civil liberties
Elisabeth: All countries, all nations, use the word terrorist to describe those who in the name of Allah will blow someone else up will blow children up
BW: Those are jihadists

***

Rosie was not confusing anything, and Barbara should not try to put words into her mouth because she will only dig the hole deeper.

Rosie now defensively tries to explain that the administration has totally over reacted to the threat of terrorism and that the administration is trying to manipulate the American populous by over stating the threat of fundamentalist Muslim extremists.

Please be clear that Rosie will be the first person in line to criticize those fear-mongering Republicans if they fail to stop a terrorist attack. Rosie wants it both ways. She wants to be blissfully ignorant of the problems but totally protected from any consequences of the policies she would like to push on the American electorate.

Does this remind anyone of the time when she helped organize the several thousand moms to march on Washington DC to protest gun ownership but had a bodyguard who carried a gun to protect her and her family? She didn’t need a gun, personally. She had enough money to hire a bodyguard to carry her weapon. Bodyguards having guns is very different from individuals having a gun.

Rosie is unable to defend her logic. She is unable to answer the question she poses because she will have to reveal her true feelings, which run counter to the beliefs of the vast majority of the American people. While there are many who don’t support the war in Iraq, very few people would ever say that our troops, or the Republican administration, are comparable to terrorists.

***

Elisabeth: Those are jihadists, they are extremists. Islamists who are trying to use their religion to justify killing hundreds of thousands –but when you ask
Rosie: All I am saying is do you not think that we have killed hundreds of thousands?

***

Again, Rosie can not accept that the terrorists are killing the innocent Iraqi civilians. If only Elisabeth could articulate this point. She tries to cull Rosie’s lack of reason for some kernel of logic:

***

Elisabeth: In the name of what?
Rosie: Invading Iraq
Elisabeth: So are you then calling us terrorists?
Rosie: No, I just said it Elisabeth. Are you not able to hold two concepts at once? Do you think we are only

***

This is a new low for Rosie. She is calling Elisabeth stupid. Rosie refuses to answer Elisabeth’s question and then belittles Elisabeth for being tenacious about wanting an answer. Elisabeth actually shows some serious backbone:

***
Elisabeth: I can hold more than two actually. I can hold more than two if you would like me to. I would like you to hold the idea that there are people out there named terrorists
Rosie: There are pregnant women in Iraq just like you and I will speak for them and you
Elisabeth: They are not terrorists. They are nice women
Rosie: So we shouldn’t be over there killing them
Elisabeth: So are we terrorists for being there?
BW: That’s a different story than saying Americans are terrorists
Rosie: But I didn’t say it. You know who said it- those crappy cable shows said it. The ones Elisabeth watches. Those shows
Elisabeth: I watch all cable news, number one. I watch all of them because that’s part of my job and as an American citizen I try to broaden as many concepts as possible by watching all of those news programs. Okay. I do obviously like certain shows – I’ll throw them out if you want me to- Like Hannity and Colmes- they are one of my favorites because they hold debates, they hold debates on that show and that is like what we do here only you know we have four women and I think it is special here but to say that someone can’t hold two thoughts at the same time just because I believe in terrorism when there are democrats out there running for office who don’t want to believe in terrorism and they want to treat it like the boogeyman. How are they going to protect us (from) something that they don’t believe in

***

Thank goodness for those crappy cable shows (i.e. all the shows on the Fox News Channel) that hold people like O’Donnell accountable. Rosie wants a total pass on her behavior and can’t accept responsibility for either her behavior or her language. Rosie does think that many Americans act like terrorists and her comments have clearly been in support of that position.

***

Rosie: You’re treating it like the boogeyman. I think they have used it to polarize people
E: Have you seen them? Have you seen footage?
BW: There are people, there are jihadists whose life work, and will die for it, is primarily to attack the west.
Rosie: So when Ron Paul says “Why is that?” Do we have any role in that Barbara? Why is that? He’s asking the question
BW: We cannot go back to the mistakes we made at the beginning of the war. We have to learn from that. But that does not mean that there is a whole body of jihadists, not necessarily Muslim, you cannot say that, of jihadists whose life and death is wiping out the west
Rosie: But they’re not innocent civilians in Iraq. There are innocent civilians in Iraq
Elisabeth: of course there are
BW: But they’ve killed innocent civilians in other places. Look what is happening in Iraq- I think everybody believes is horrific and we don’t know how to get out of it but that does not mean that there are not jihadists, terrorists, who are out to harm us and we must be aware of it.
Joy: But when people say that people like Jimmy Carter are irrelevant or Ron Paul are irrelevant, that’s wrong too. We must look at Mideast policy over the last 25 years and that’s what we are talking about too. Name-calling is irrelevant at this point. That’s what’s irrelevant.
Rosie: And I love the troops America. Like it or not I want them home safe

***

Rosie is on a rant that does nothing but demonstrate her inability to be rational in her arguments on the View. She should stop quoting Ron Paul- the guy is a bit of a nut- and begin having a dialogue with actual troops in Iraq. They may know better what the truth is in Iraq.

Also, a note for Joy: We should go back just slightly longer than 25 years when we consider policy options available to the United States in regards to the Middle East. We should be sure to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of Jimmy Carter’s presidency if for no other reason to be sure that we don't repeat his mistakes.

To all of the women: Listen to Elisabeth. She understands the threat we face from the terrorists. I will use the word "terrorists"  because that is what they are.

I know that the threat posed by these radical fundamentalists is the greatest threat to the world in our history.  

By the way:  I love the troops and want them home as soon as safely possible. 

***

BW: While Jimmy Carter was on one morning show, Al Gore was on another- he was on Good Morning America and Diane said something about Donna Brazile – who is a Democratic advisor- said “When you start to lose weight we’ll know you’re running” so are you starting to lose weight? So “ha, ha, ha” said Al Gore. Everybody is trying and so he didn’t exactly answer but he you know again he didn’t say under no circumstances would I ever
Joy: Well he better get busy and either do it or don’t
BW: No you don’t have to get busy yet. Michael Bloomberg has not gotten busy yet. You can kind of wait a little bit and see who knocks who off

***

People should not rule Gore out as he could be a serious contender for the Presidential race. Gore and his many minions believe the 2000 election was stolen from him. (This despite the fact the every count resulted in Bush winning Florida.) He craved the office then and would love to take it now. Also, he has worked hard to build an identity separate from the Greek-like Clintonian tragedy.

Al Gore has latched on to Global warming- or I think the new name for whatever it is is climate change- and has become a world leader in the efforts to curb the human contribution to this theoretical problem. He may very well win the Nobel Peace Prize for his work in this area. The media will most likely ignore his personal contributions to the global warming – climate change issue as Gore is vocal about his use of Carbon credits to counter his excessive use of fossil fuels.

Gore can wait to throw his hat in the ring as he has a built in following and name recognition. Clinton will continue to have problems with her likeability as she is, simply, not likeable. Obama has no resume. Edwards is, well, Edwards. If the democrats want a tough ticket to beat, they would be wise to be looking at a Gore / Obama ticket.

Joy jumps into the conversation, steering it back to Jimmy Carter and her frustration that people refer to Carter as irrelevant.

***

Joy: When they called Jimmy Carter irrelevant, that’s Spanish for old and I don’t appreciate that
Elisabeth: You think so
Joy: And you know what- if that’s that they are talking about then every republican in that republican primary debate that they had, mentioned Ronald Reagan about a hundred times. Ronald Reagan is gone
Rosie: Right

(They are all talking over each other)

Joy: So the reason they called Jimmy Carter irrelevant is because Jimmy Carter is a Democrat
Elisabeth: Wait a minute. I don’t think they are calling him irrelevant because he is old or because he’s a democrat. I think they are calling him irrelevant because if what he said and in fact he ended up taking back what he said
Joy: It’s because he’s a Democrat and they don’t agree with him
Rosie: Elisabeth- Elisabeth- how can you say the man who won the Nobel Peace Prize who is probably the most Christ –like president we have ever had, in the true teachings of Christ
Elisabeth: He has done a ton of things with Habitat for Humanity
BW: After his term- He was not a great President
Elisabeth: With his Habitat for Humanity work he is a giving man
Rosie: The most Christ-like, Jimmy Carter, the most pious
Elisabeth: I am not saying
BW: Not when he was in office

(They all talk over each other…)

***

Wow! Christ-like is quite a term to use in reference to anyone, let alone one of the most irrelevant Presidents in history.

Why is Carter Christ-like? Because he has built some homes for Habitat for Humanity? That’s neat but thousands and thousands of people contribute to Habitat for Humanity. Are they all Christ-like?

Jimmy Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work to promote peace in many countries around the world including North Korea, Ethiopia, Liberia, The Sudan, Venezuela and Bosnia. I’m sure glad that he was successful in bringing peace to these countries. Oh, wait- I guess it’s a work in progress. He also promotes free elections in countries like China, Venezuela and Nicaragua. Again his success…

Jimmy Carter may be a nice guy. I haven’t met him so I can’t say. I do know that there is nothing nice about promoting policy, either foreign or domestic, that undermines democracy by supporting activities or leaders that lean towards socialism. Carter left office with America in a shambles. He has tried to make contributions to world peace but is misguided in his support of dictators. Carter is naive and he is an embarrassment to the United States. He was not a great President. He was not even an average president.

For Jimmy Carter to criticize Bush on his Middle Eastern policy… Let’s just say he has some nerve.

Carter is not irrelevant because he is old. He is irrelevant because he is irrelevant. He is a joke.

There is no comparison between Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Reagan embodied the American Dream. He loved America. He would never have belittled out country or dealt with policy in a way that demeaned our country. Reagan understood what made America great and he embraced the values that helped create the greatest country on earth. Carter seems to deplore these values. He does not understand that when you take away economic freedom, you lose freedom. He dozen’t understand that dictators can not lead free countries.

Carter’s ineffectiveness was made all the more evident by Reagan’s work ethic and respect of the office. Reagan got in the face of our enemies while lifting the spirits of average Americans. Reagan was the right man at the right time. We should all hope our country finds that person in 2008 because we need that person now more than ever.

The person to lead America into the future must be more Reaganesque than Carter if we are to make progress in the war on terror. All the hand-wringing in the world will not bring about necessary political change around the world.

Rosie starts the second segment with the topic of Jimmy Carter. She apparently slept through the Seventies and thinks he is one of the world’s leading experts on dealing with the Middle East.

Carter stuck his foot in his mouth talking about the Bush Administration. He has spent the last day trying to figure out how to undig the hole he created. Rosie quotes Carter and she stands behind his statements, even if he doesn’t.

Carter said:

“We now have endorsed the concept of preemptive war, where we go to war with another nation militarily, even though our own security is not directly threatened, if we want to change the regime there or if we fear that sometime in the future our security might be endangered. That’s a radical departure from all previous administration policies.”

***

Rosie: So it was the first time that any president, living President, condemned the sitting President in such a tone and it got
Joy: He had done something like that before- Carter- He had criticized him before
BW: All candidates criticize the other candidates. I mean it is not as if my goodness there’s a criticism- then they all make up. Nancy Pelosi said the worst things about George Bush and now you know
Joy: Well she has to work with him now- that’s why

***

I just have to say that if Barbara does not understand the difference between political candidates criticizing the positions of their opponents and a former president undermining the current president- well I don’t know what to say. This is one of those times that demonstrate why I can not begin to fathom how this woman ever got to where she is in the industry.

Thankfully, Elisabeth brings the conversation back on track:

***

Elisabeth: Carter was all over Clinton when he pardoned Rich- I mean he’s been a very outspoken person as well as former President along history
BW: The White House went (she feigns slapping someone, repeatedly)
Rosie: The White House said he has becoming increasingly irrelevant
Elisabeth: Well that was after his comment saying that this was the worst administration in U.S. history
Rosie: Which I totally agree with
Elisabeth: Well he actually took that back. Interestingly enough he actually took that back
Rosie: Of course it’s a man booing
Elisabeth: I’m a woman- I’d boo too.
Joy: He took that back today. He said “That’s not what I’m- he said it was careless”
BW: Who took it back – Tony Snow or Carter
Elisabeth: Carter took back the fact that he said it was the worst administration
BW: this was the worst administration
Elisabeth: he said that today I think
Rosie: He didn’t really take it back
Elisabeth: Well he did- he said “it was careless and it’s not what I meant to say”
BW: What did he mean to say?
Elisabeth: He meant
Rosie (with wild facial expressions): It’s the totally worst without a doubt
Elisabeth: No- he said he was trying to compare him to Nixon
Joy: He said this administration’s foreign policy is worse than Nixon
Elisabeth: I love when people say things and then try to take them back?
BW: Nixon’s foreign policy was not terrible it was one of the good things Nixon’s foreign policy
Joy: He opened the door to China actually- it was his domestic surveillance that really did him in

***

Jimmy Carter trying to take his statement back is like Rosie trying to say she didn’t mean the American military is comparable to the terrorists last week.

He said what he said and he meant it. His comments had nothing to do with a comparison to Nixon. How gullible does he think the American people are? He is like a crook who is sorry he got caught but not sorry he stole something.

Carter aligns himself with socialist principles. He is like a pacifist who wants to pretend that if only everyone would agree to be non-violent we would all get along fine. This position doesn’t work because there is a segment of the world that will not be peaceful. There is a growing group of people who hate western thinking and want to destroy all that encourages individual freedom. We must stand up to these people. We must do all we can to preemptively protect the US and its interests around the world.

If Rosie and Jimmy Carter want to delude themselves with peacenik reasoning, they can go ahead. There is nothing they can say that will turn the hearts of these anti-western terrorists, who are nearly all connected to fundamentalist Islamic movements. (At least to date there have not been a whole lot of Christians blowing up coffee shops or Iraqi police officers.

May 21, 2007

I have to apologize for the delayed postings on the Monday show- I have been sick as a dog and then one of my kids ended up in the ER.

I would have skipped it but the show was too good to pass up.

First, there was a love fest between Rosie and Barbara that threatened to push Joy over the edge. There have been several shows since the Rosie leaving announcement that Joy has shown her frustration with the Rosie fervor. 

I am pretty sure Joy will be pretty happy to see the media hog leave.

I would also like to have Bill O'Reilly's body language expert evaluate BW's body language while she made the comments detailed below.

She doesn't look up at the camera throughout much of her statement.  Her mannerisms don't indicate she actually believes what she is saying.  It is though BW is making the statement against her will.  If she actually believed what she was saying, she might look up at the audience, at the camera or even at O'Donnell.

Rosie is better at giving kudos to Walters.  Maybe she is a better actress because I find it hard to believe that she would actually give credit to anyone else for her "success" if they do win an Emmy.

***

BW: We have won an Emmy for best show. We have never won an Emmy for best cast and if we win this year, I mean I think we are all wonderful but this was your year with us and that makes me very sad that you’re not going to be there- so now are going to start to read “she deliberately isn’t coming
Rosie: No- you’re the mother of four you know. But listen- if you do win- listen if we do win best host- Let me tell you something
BW: but you’re not going to be at- I am gonna have a big- you know these things where you get
Rosie: cardboard- you can get a look-alike. There was a lot of look-alikes
BW: I’m gonna walk up with the cardboard. Listen- I could bring your mother-in-law
Rosie: Oh please, no gosh. But the thing is Barbara if this show does win best host, all the credit goes to you for hiring me. So there you go Barbara Walters
BW: We’ll share
Rosie: But either way I’m going to be rooting you on and watching you. So know that. I’m going to miss it and you know that’s kind of
Joy: So what are you saying- we couldn’t have won before you came?
Rosie: Why do you have to turn it into a negative? Joy- What do you want me to say? It was the same exact show it was for 9 years. It used to get just as much attention
Joy: No- but we’re the same people- we are
Rosie: If you win best host, if we win best host it’s to her for hiring me
BW: Look guys- our first big fight- look, we have not won before and I don’t think we are going to because as you say- you’re favorite quote
Joy: There is always one of us to hate
Rosie: Right
BW: But if we do it was a different show this year. Rosie was on with us
Joy: I know
BW: If we win it’s because of all of us
Rosie: Correct
BW: but it was a different year
Joy: But maybe they just hated somebody previous to us
Rosie: Well who knows what it was
Elisabeth: But you know I think
BW: But 9 years with wonderful shows- we’re going to be on until I no longer even know what I am talking about- but this was an interesting- this was an interesting year. Can we agree with that?
Rosie: Yeah- we can agree on that
Joy: Yeah
Elisabeth: Oh yeah
BW: I want to get back to something that- what’s your name? Joy- was saying.
Joy: Maybe it’ll be before 20 years Barbara

***

Elisabeth: Let me tell you something- wait a minute, wait a minute- he is saying okay because of our policy, because of our American policy of having people stationed all over the world and sticking our noses in supposedly other people’s business that is why these attacks have happened
Joy: No, no they don’t care if
Elisabeth: these are Islamic fundamentalist extremists who have this in their hearts from the time they could hear a word
Joy: He doesn’t see it that way
Elisabeth: They want Americans and Jews killed and if they have to die with us they will die with us because that is better
Joy: But he says it is not because of our lifestyles that they hate us it is because of our policies

***
Then they all talk over each other and it is unintelligible.

Elisabeth: What about the policy of the Jewish population is so awful
Joy: Don’t bring that in now- that’s a canard
Elisabeth: They equate the two. They want both Jews and Americans to die- that simple
Rosie: Who is they?
Elisabeth: Terrorists
Rosie: Again it’s the word terrorists

***

Joy doesn’t want to talk about the fanatical views held by leaders in the Middle East towards Israel. Of course she doesn’t. How can she defend the President of Iran, who has stated repeatedly, in many different ways, at many different times his hope to “wipe Israel off the face of the earth”? Yeah, we don’t want to talk about that.

We don’t want to talk about the Mickey Mouse type character used to teach young Middle Eastern children to hate the infidels. We don’t want to talk about the twelve year old boy who beheaded a journalist recently. There are so many things we don’t want to talk about.

Thank goodness we have Rosie to step in to moderate all the talking over each other because Barbara is going to be upset. It didn’t work- they continue to talk over each other with Joy arguing about Elisabeth using the word terrorist.

Rosie then takes the stage to set everyone straight:

***

Rosie: Can I ask you a question? No Joy- I haven’t said anything- I just want to say something. 655,000 Iraqi civilians are dead. Who are the terrorists?
Elisabeth (dumbstruck): Who are the terrorists?
Rosie: 655,000 Iraqis. I’m saying you have to look from- we invaded
Elisabeth: Who are you calling terrorists?
Rosie: I’m saying that if you were in Iraq and another country- The United States, the richest in the world, invaded your country and killed 655,000 of your citizens what would you call us?
Elisabeth: Are we killing their citizens or are their people also killing their citizens?
Rosie: We are invading a sovereign nation and occupying a country against the U.N.

***

It is times like this when I wonder how her partner, Kelly, can watch the delusion- when Rosie makes these statements on national television does Kelly shake her head? Does she laugh? Does she just ignore it to stay on the gravy train? Rosie clearly goes down paths only the most extreme thinking people are willing to explore. Is this the kind of thinking she teaches their children? Do her children get exposed to this sort of paranoia at home or is she more extreme on television to push buttons? I don’t get it. I don’t get her.

We are occupying a country against the U.N. We need to stop pretending the U.N. has any merit.  One of the main reasons we are in the situation we are in is that Saddam had NO respect for the U.N.  The U.N. is corrupt. The U.N. creates a forum for terroristic, dictatorial leaders to pretend their governments are legitimate. We should cease funding this joke of an organization.

If the U.S. wants to support an international organization, we should create a new entity comprised only of countries that allow for free elections, free practice of religious beliefs, dissemination of information without consequence and a fair system of justice for people accused of criminal activity. 

The women go on and on in circles. Joy wants us to reevaluate our policy. What that means, nobody knows. By the way, what policy approaches has Ron Paul introduced in Congress?

Rosie thinks all governments sponsor terrorism, including the United States. Rosie absolutely blames the United States for the deaths of Iraqi citizens even though the vast majority of the deaths are the result of attacks by insurgent groups trying to undermine the progress being made by a democratically elected government.

Rosie equates our government’s actions with the actions of the terrorists. She clearly believes that the deaths of thousands of Americans at the hands of terrorists (and I won’t hesitate to use that word) do not merit a retaliatory act unless we can be sure that the loss on the other side will be less than or equal to America’s loss. She views every life as equally valuable.

The fact that Rosie considers our government to be comparable to a terrorist regime is unbelievable. Her arguments are anti-American. She likes to describe herself as a patriot. Really?

Elisabeth is going to need to go on bedrest if this keeps up.

After a slow first segment, the women picked up speed after the break:

Joy watched the “debate” and commented on the interactions between Texas Congressman Ron Paul and Rudy Giuliani.

First she refers to Paul as “very conservative” which is slightly off. He is a staunch libertarian. Libertarians are often conservative but their views actually swing liberal at times.

The talk then heats up:

***

Joy: I had never heard of him before and yet I thought he was just right on the money.

Elisabeth: You did. How so?

Joy: Basically he was saying we need to rethink what we are doing in the Middle East as policy rather than just being angry and reacting the way we do.

Elisabeth: But he didn’t say it that way

Joy: Well if you saw him on CNN later he elaborated

Elisabeth: Right. But during the debate what he had said was the reason he essentially in so many words said that the reason why maybe 9/11 happened was that we had been attacking them for 10 years

Rosie: That’s not what he said

Joy: No no

Elisabeth: we had been- people interpreted what he is saying

Rosie: That’s why I wanted the clip. That’s how Rudy Giuliani interpreted it

Elisabeth: Well- he did say we had been there for 10 years – didn’t he say that?

Joy: Yes- but he also says we are building, we are building bases- 14 permanent bases in Iraq now. He says ‘what would we say if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico? Would we be objecting?’

Elisabeth: We don’t need them here

Joy: We need to look at what we do from the perspective of what would happen if somebody else did it to us. That’s all he is saying. All he is saying is that instead of just being a knee jerk like Rudy Giuliani- and you know Rudy Giuliani is not the only one who can respond to 9/11. Excuse me

Elisabeth: But he is the one who did

Joy: He happened to be there. So were we. We were all there. Also the point is that there are other people in the country, including Ron Paul, who have another way of looking at Middle Eastern policy and we should be listening to those people too.

Elisabeth: That’s like saying…We are listening to them. We are hearing them loud and clear, however

***

I wish people like Joy would listen to the few Democrats who actually seem to understand the risks terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism pose to world stability.

***

Rosie: Elisabeth- Let Elisabeth speak- I’m the moderator

Joy (laughing): Shut up

Elisabeth: A couple of things struck me as interesting. He seemed to link 9/11 to Iraq which you never hear, number 1. Do you agree with him on that?

Joy: Who?

Elisabeth: Ron Paul.

Chandra: He linked the region

Elisabeth: he linked the region. Okay – so that was something you really don’t hear ever- especially from someone with your beliefs

Joy: Yeah- go ahead

Elisabeth: and also he’s all about non-interference in the world. So what are we supposed to do? Apologize and never interfere when safety is at risk

Joy: No, No- just rethink

Elisabeth: Sorry Mussolini. Sorry Stalin. Noriega. What were we thinking?

Joy: no, no, no don’t go back to that. He’s talking about Democrats also. He’s not just talking about Republicans

Elisabeth: This is not about – I don’t think this is partisan

Joy: He’s talking about how we supported the Shah of Iran. How we have bases in Saudi Arabia which they consider to be a Holy Land. That is an infraction in many ways. And so we have to take the blame and the responsibility for what we do also and not just attack willy nilly.

***

So now we have attacked Iraq “willy nilly” and something has to change.

There was nothing willy nilly about the need for America to demonstrate its strength to those who would consider threatening us. Saddam either had or lied about having WMD. Either way, I am glad he is gone.  There is nothing willy nilly about trying to promote freedom in an area of the world in which most of the governments are permeated by fanaticism.  We need to hope the good people in the Middle East will be emboldened to pull together and demand freedom.  They will not be able to do this without support.

The United States remains the world's best hope.  People like Joy and Rosie, who choose to look at the negative in America and the good in every other country are missing the point and undermining our chances to succeed in our efforts to promote freedom.  This is not to say the U.S. should involve itself in every skirmish around the globe. 

I would take the position, however, that we have a duty try to support those who seek to further freedom and democracy and we should not assist those governments that seek to minimize freedom. This includes our need to reevaluate our relationship with a country like Saudi Arabia.

Chandra Wilson guest hosts

On Idol:

It’s a pretty sad state of affairs for Idol as we are left with Blake and Jordin when Melinda was clearly the best singer. America isn’t interested in singing, alone. The voters want the whole package. Teeny bopper girls and Elisabeth voted for Blake and the boys voted for the young and attractive Jordin. It’ll be interesting who is still around in three or four years.

They gave a Paris update: Paris now has to serve only 23 days in solitary confinement. Thank goodness for over-crowding. The extra 22 days would have wreaked havoc with her hair. Her roots will barely be noticeable.

­First there was Imus making a ridiculous comment about some basketball players. Be clear: He was wrong. The issue came to a full boil in days- he lost his job, his career forever diminished to a three word oops.

Again an old White man.

Then there was one less, one less…

Fast forward to Akon - the opening act for Gwen Stefani on her world tour.

The women had a brief conversation about Akon.

It’s about time! For the past month there has been a controversy brewing- very slowly percolating. I mean if this problem came to a head any slower…

Akon is a Muslim man, married to several women, who has become quite the celebrity. His current album “Konvicted” recently peaked at #2 on the R & B Chart. No reasonable person could think the garbage he spews is music. Hip Hop culture is DESTROYING the Black community. Where are the moms and the dads of the kids who download this brain rot? How can any legitimate leader of the Black community not be making it his or her life’s goal to rid society of this trash. Don Imus’ “nappy headed ho” comment, when placed next to Ikon’s venom, is like comparing a newborn kitten to a hungry tiger.

To read some of the lyrics to Akon's music click on http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/album/74612.html

and then pick a song like “Gangsta Bop” or “Smack That” to learn what young inner city kids think is music today.

Read these lyrics, just don’t read them out loud if children are in the room.

I wonder if his mom is proud of her son. What do the Imams think of this music and why are they not denouncing it?

Anyways, in April Akon was performing in Trinidad, opening for Stefani when a 14 years old girl- who had won a dance contest- joined him onstage. What a prize! Akon simulated a rape of the girl- holding her down, with pelvic thrusting, throwing her around the stage… Absolutely disgusting!

Akon finally apologized last week- mostly because she was underage. He seems to not get that his behavior is the problem, not her age.

Verizon pulled their sponsorship of the Stefani tour.

Stefani has not dropped him from her tour.

The video has been pulled from YouTube but is currently available at the following site. http://www.watercoolermusic.com/2007/04/akon-scandal-brewing.html

For more information about Akon, click: http://www.africahit.com/news/index.php?mod=article&cat=othersenglish&article=2060

At times like this, Rosie shows her true colors- how pathetic.

What was Anne Hathaway or Mandy Moore or doing yesterday? They seem to be decent women.

Where are the feminist leaders of today? What is a feminist today? Do the young women of today have the same beliefs as people like Gloria Steinem?

The discussion turned to the feminist movement and Roe v. Wade.

***
Rosie: We’re going backwards. We’re fighting
Barbara: The way we get ahead is by being famous
Rosie: It seems like in the progress of women in American culture we’re going backwards. Roe v. Wade is threatened
Griffin: I agree. I think the Women’s Movement is going way back
Barbara: Roe v. Wade is not the women’s movement
Elisabeth: It’s media driven
Rosie: That’s how we got Roe v. Wade- the feminists standing up and saying you can’t control my body
Barbara: We are still doing it
Elisabeth: We are more seen now. We are in a more looksist society than we’ve ever been in before because of YouTube, because of the media. I mean it’s progress but at the same time comes the risk of women being exposed during these times. And I also feel as though we’re so focused- maybe we should ask the media just focus on the stories that are empowering to women. Don’t photograph one celebrity with a cigarette. Don’t photograph one celebrity out drunk who’s underage. Don’t do it. Stop glamorizing it. That’s what’s happening

***

Elisabeth misses the point again. The problem is not that the media put images out there of these performers. Few of the images of Spears, Lohan or Hilton are positive. The problem is that our society no longer judges the behavior these people engage in as problematic. A quick stint in rehab absolves people of guilt. Children are like charms on a bracelet. Law breaking has become acceptable because people in general get off too easily.

The truth is that many of the problems we are talking about today have their roots in the feminism that Rosie puts on a pedestal. The sexual revolution lowered the bar. Rather than encouraging woman to embrace self-respecting behavior, these feminists encouraged a sexual revolution that demeaned and devalued women. These feminists pushed a woman can do what men do standard rather then a men should behave more like women attitude. Marriage has been belittled. Women were encouraged to put their immediate happiness first rather than to consider long term implications of any decision.

Many women found that you cannot build your happiness on someone else’s pain.

Griffin then spoke about her experiences doing her stand up in a state prison for women. The inmates told her the thing the prisons do is strip them of their femininity. They are treated like a number in prison.

Well, committing crimes isn’t very feminine. Rosie likes to contend that most women are in jail because of their terrible drug addict thug boyfriends. Maybe had these women been a bit more feminine in the first place, they would have found decent men who would have helped them stay on the straight and narrow.

Barbara returned to the topic of feminism and how times have changed since the book

The Feminine Mystique came out. The book encouraged women to go out and get a job. Women who stayed home felt guilty. Now she thinks many women are deciding to stay home with the children. She makes the point that the ability of women to make the choice to work indicates the battle has, to a certain degree, been won.

***

Rosie then has to add her $.75: Remember when we would burn our bras. Remember when we would say we are not going to participate in beauty pageants anymore because it is the total marketization of women and now there sprouting up all over the place
Griffin: I think it’s worse than when I was a teenager
Rosie: I do to- I think its harder- we’ve gone backwards
Griffin: We’ve gone back absolutely
Elisabeth: Those rights aren’t typically – before they were restricted correct

***

The whole point of feminism should be that women can make the choice to have a career. The issue feminists have struggled with is the need to make responsible choices. Many feminists seem to think they can make any choice they want and that choice is devoid of responsibility. They shouldn’t feel guilty about the consequences of the decision.

Maybe the reason so many women in their 30s are staying home with their kids is that they felt the consequences of their mother’s decision. While their moms were out working they were at home wanting to be the most important thing in her life. Maybe today’s true feminist is a stay at home mom (either full or part time) who chooses to put her kids first because once you choose to become a mom you choose to put yourself after your kids. That choice is the responsible choice. Women who don’t want to parent shouldn’t choose to be moms.

By the way, thank goodness the whole bra-burning thing is a thing of the past.

Kathy Griffin guest host

The first segment focused on non-political banter. American Idol…Sotheby’s auctions of over-priced artwork…$16,000 dresses that Barbara won’t pay for… Good, funny commentary is what the View should be all about.

On to a phone call received by Barbara from Paris’ mom, Kathy Hilton. She is going through a living you know what and wanted Barbara to share the following:

“We can only hope that something positive will come from all of this. Hopefully young people who look up to people like Paris will learn from this.”

Barbara was impressed with the strength of the statement but I think Griffin hit the nail on the head: If the Free Paris T-Shirts were selling, she’d be singing a different tune.

Why is Paris Hilton a role model? What has she ever done in her life that wasn’t based on her name? This girl is an out of control train.

Elisabeth suggested that perhaps parents should attempt to discipline their children before the justice system has to do it for them. Excellent point! Maybe Paris should have been put on a much shorter leash.

Lesson to parents (and grandparents) setting up trust funds: don’t give them any money until they have finished college and landed a real job.

The women discussed the Sopranos and Tony plugging a dying Christopher’s nose to hasten his death. This put Barbara over the edge- she has had enough of Tony Soprano. Rosie laughs at how Tony has killed many people over the seasons and BW hasn’t been disturbed-

***

Rosie: It just reminds me of you Barbara never really upset with the President until you couldn’t cross 5^th Avenue to get to your house

***

Rosie pointing out BW’s furor about the Presidential motorcade was funny. Barbara was upset that Bush thought he was so important that traffic should be blocked 15 minutes prior to his passage. She commented that he was just the President- not a King…

They then talked about Martha’s stint in the country club prison and the fact that Rosie found out that Paris is going to a real prison- a county jail. Barbara explained that she won’t be in the general population but she will have to eat crappy food.

Pity, pity, pity…

The person in Joy’s ear must have been talking to her because she missed the whole Paris discussion but then hopped back to the Sopranos like they were still talking about it. Joy wanted to be sure to express her feelings that even though she loves the show, it really gave a beating to Italian Americans. She hopes the writers do something to promote the non-mafia Italians.

I personally hope the show goes out with a huge bang. AJ should have to step in and take over for Tony- maybe have him go after the head of one of the other families- declare war, a horse’s head in someone’s bed… That’s what the show’s all about.

After the break they hit on issues related to donor eggs. Women get between $5000 and $10,000 to donate eggs. Women who donate eggs take many risks. They take drugs and go through procedures that could have long-term implications for them. Some people are concerned that women shouldn’t get paid for their contributions. Others are concerned that women may donate eggs under duress for financial reasons, etc. and not adequately consider the potential risks. Apparently too much money can interfere with women being rational.

Women who choose to donate their eggs should be compensated for their experiences. The eggs of a really smart attractive woman aged 25 may be worth more than another woman’s eggs. The system should ensure the woman is fully informed of the risks and then should let the market decide what a woman’s eggs are worth.

On to Laura Bush:

Joy raised the issue that Laura Bush quit smoking. Rosie was shocked as she said she didn’t know LB smoked and that it was counter to her image. Then the comedians threw out their barbs:

***
Joy: Wouldn’t you smoke if you were married to him?

More chatter then-

Rosie: She kept it hidden- what else have they hidden? (laughter) Honestly

Elisabeth then, showing her irritation points out that they should be focusing on the fact that she has made a great decision to quit smoking

Barbara then jumps in chastising: Elisabeth everything we say has a political agenda- “Good Morning” “Who says it’s a good morning”

***
On to the HPV virus and the vaccine- Joy annoys Rosie by suggesting Rosie doesn’t believe in the vaccine.

Rosie, on defense, explains she is not for STDs, she simply believes the government should not require vaccinations for an STD. She is 100% correct about this point.

STDs are not like Mumps or Measles or Chicken Pox or Influenza or other communicable diseases spread through hand to hand contact or coughing, sneezing or simply breathing.

HPV can not be transmitted via the air or caught from a doorknob- two people must engage in sexual behavior to pass this virus on. Parents should make the decision whether to vaccinate their daughter based on their knowledge about their daughter and the vaccine. This is a new vaccine. A five year study doesn’t offer conclusive evidence of anything. It may be years before anyone knows if there are side effects on these girls.

Additionally, there is the side reality that everything we do to make sex “safer” can also take away ammunition young girls can use to support their decision to say no to a pressuring boyfriend.

Call me naïve but maybe, just maybe, STDs act as a deterrent for some people. The very idea they might catch a disease may stop some of these kids from engaging in premature sexual activity.

The women then discuss issues about vaccines, in general and then focus on the possible vaccine –Autism link.

Joy offers her analysis on why she does not believe vaccines cause autism.

***

Joy: I have a question about Autism because they do say that there’s a possibility that there’s a connection but if there’s a connection, why doesn’t everybody have Autism then? Every kid in our generation got the shot

Rosie then explains about the use of mercury between 1991 and 1995. (Joy takes notes)

Joy: If all those kids got it between 1991 and 1995. Why wouldn’t they all be autistic in that case?

***

Sometimes, she just amazes me with her inability to grasp what seem to be fairly basic principles. Joy- does every smoker get lung cancer? No- oh, then smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer. Does every person who gets sunburn develop skin cancer? No? So why do we wear sunscreen?

Maybe some people are predisposed to develop certain conditions. Maybe it’s a combination of factors that result in one person getting a certain illness and those factors aren’t all present in another case. Thankfully, there are a lot of really smart scientists trying to figure these sorts of things out. In the mean time, lets all be glad they took the mercury out of the vaccines.

Rosie is right about the HPV vaccine but her logic doesn’t necessarily extend to all vaccines. Barbara’s explanation about risks and rewards are correct. There are times when the government can issue rules and apply them across the board to protect public health and safety. Measles, mumps and whooping cough were nearly absent from the average person’s experience. Now it is not surprising to hear about outbreaks of whooping cough in daycare centers or cases of measles or mumps amongst college students.

There may be many reasons for the reemergence of these bugs but two primary causes are the increasing numbers of illegal immigrants failing to get shots for their kids and themselves and the growing number of people refusing to immunize their children. These diseases are on the rise and all Americans need to be paying attention. Many of these illnesses can be caught on a bus or by exchanging money at a drive-thru.

Additionally, there are new threats that should cause all of us to pause: Drug resistant strains of Tuberculosis are also becoming more common as are cases of Hepatitis and Leprosy.

Children attending public schools should be required to be vaccinated against the typical childhood diseases, allowing an exception for medical reasons, only. The government’s interest in protecting students outweighs an individual’s interest in refusing. Parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids can home school their kids or send them to a private school.

HPV is not a typical childhood disease, although many on the left would encourage, or at least not discourage, children to explore their right to engage in sexual conduct at whatever age the child demonstrated the slightest interest in the subject.

HPV is an entirely preventable adult disease with very real consequences for those exposed. Lets teach kids the skills they need to avoid getting HPV and let them know that when they are older, they can get a vaccine, if they so choose.

Ultimately, we should strive to help children act like children as long as they can. We should expect parents to function like parents.

Monday, May 14

On Giuliani:

Joy: He’s dropping in the polls now rapidly and Bloomberg is “kicking a**"

***

Joy thinks Bloomberg is in it and she thinks because he has so much money he wouldn’t be beholden to anyone. Rosie would vote for him because he took only a dollar as a salary. (Hillary should quickly pay back her salary to the taxpayers. If Bloomberg is in, she may lose some votes over this issue.)

The last couple of days have seen an amazing swing in the press against Giuliani. Whenever the mainstream press is on the move, the women of the View can’t be far behind:

***

Joy: Giuliani post 9/11 appeared to be very heroic but now they are saying that he was not that efficient in helping the people who were the recovery people, the responders
Rosie: Also he was instrumental in making sure all of the steel was removed and shipped to Canada right away. Giuliani- it was 6 ships to China, sorry- right away
Joy: For what purpose?
Rosie: Well to get it out of there- to have you know all of the stu- but it was all gone so there was like no like metal to test. There was no, there was no
Woodruff: Can you melt it down to recycle?
Rosie: No
Elisabeth (laughing): So now Giuliani was involved in a cover up- is that what’s going on?

***

Rosie has some sources! The conspiracy theories she buys into are absolutely incredible. While Giuliani was touring the destruction, breathing in the same dust the first responders were breathing in, he apparently had some major effort under way to cover up something by shipping the steel out of the U.S.A. as quickly as possible. It gets worse:

***

Elisabeth goes on: I just want to check because look- here’s what I think is happening and I think it is kind of sad because we are getting closer and closer to the election and Giuliani seems to be, at least up until this point, the frontrunner for the Republican Party
Joy: Except for his left of center domestic positions
Elisabeth: I mean Mitt Romney’s coming up a little bit but he’s got his own challenges. I think Giuliani at this point really has been the number one horse for the Republicans
Joy: Compared to the rest of them he seems like a genius- compared to the rest of them in the Republican Party right now
Elisabeth: All of a sudden he’s not a hero. He’s been a hero right up until election time Rosie: Well because how many years later there’s 40,000 people dying of 9/11 related illness- those workers who went down there 40,000- one guy in Nanuet, right where I live just died in his home. He was younger than me- went down there every day for two months looking for his brother firefighters – the guy died of lung cancer. These people are dying at an unprecedented rate and they knew that the air there was toxic
Joy: Let me read what it says here according to documents that they now say: “While the city had a safety plan for the workers it never meaningfully enforced federal requirements that those at the site wear respirators. They didn’t enforce that particular rule and a lot
Elisabeth: Some chose not to
Joy: A lot of those guys, and I guess women too, were annoyed with then when they put them on because they interfered with their job
Rosie: Just so you know those were not respirators, those were Home Depot masks that they want you to wear when you’re spray painting. The respirators that they need was to prevent carcinogens from getting onto their lungs which is now killing them
Joy: They were not prepared
Rosie: But you understand 3000 people died that day but 40,000 are dying of 9/11 diseases
Elisabeth: We should respond to them. Without a doubt our government should be taking care of those people
Rosie: But we’re not even saying that there is a 9/11 disease

***

She then explains all of the wonderful research that Mount Sinai is doing and the program that Scientologists are doing to detoxify fireman.

***

Joy: 70% of recovery workers at Mount Sinai hospital have breathing problems
Elisabeth: It was to take 30 months to clean up after 9/11- it ended up taking 9. If you look back- at the time people were applauding his action and how rapid
Joy: He was too fast though. He took
Elisabeth: He took incredible action to make things better
Rosie: It was the biggest crime scene ever in the history of the world right and all the evidence was cleaned up and sent away
Woodruff: We had no plan in New York City- everybody rushed down there you had to be able to anticipate this in some way

***

It is amazing the hindsight people like Rosie have.

Gee- we thought at the time that it was better for the city to clean it up and begin to rebuild the area- get the businesses back on track.

Apparently there was more to the “crime scene” than the whole world thought. Maybe it wasn’t a bunch of fundamentalist Muslim maniacs who hijacked planes and crashed them into buildings.

Rosie must be on to something: Bush and Giuliani hatched a plan, years before Bush got elected, to plan September 11^th. The Supreme Court had to be in on it because otherwise Gore would have been President and that would have wrecked everything. So they hatched this plan and then succeeded in crashing the planes into the buildings and then the imploded building 7 to hide all the data. And then they sent all of the evidence to China to be destroyed. And everybody involved has done a great job keeping their secret.

Then Joy goes on a rant about the ‘93 World Trade Center attack and how Giuliani responded to it.

***

Joy: According to what I’ve been reading, they told Giuliani to take the command control center out of the World Trade Center because it’s a target- maybe they’ll try again. EVERYBODY told him to do that- He did not listen. He kept it in the World Trade center so when they attacked the World Trade Center the command control center went up with it
Rosie: Do you know Joy- just so you know- Joy wait a minute- the command control center was in World Trade Center Building 7- not in 1 or 2. It was in the building that mysteriously collapsed at 5:30 p.m.
Joy: It shouldn’t have been in any of them
Rosie: It was not in tower 1 that got hit by a plane. It was not in tower 2 that got hit by a plane. It was in tower 7 that got hit by nothing- 47 floors and dropped at 5:30 into itself
Elisabeth: There was also internal fire in that building which can melt steel which was holding up that building
Rosie: No way Elisabeth
Elizabeth: It can weaken it
Rosie: No way

***

Rosie goes on and on with her conspiracy theories… 2700 degrees melts steel… there were three pools of molten steel under those three buildings… It was physically impossible for those buildings to drop as fast as they did

At some point her calm explanations about these conspiracy theories should scare everybody involved with her. She so completely believes that the American government would lie about anything but seems so willing to accept the stories of terrorists.

Oh, silly me. She sounds sincere and clearly talks to lots of people. She sounds like she is making perfect sense. How could Rosie be wrong?!?

The real deal here: The press has turned on Giuliani because they now think that the Democratic candidates have a shot at winning the '08 election. Recent polls have put both Obama and Clinton ahead of the entire Republican field. Giuliani is the currently the greatest threat to Democrats and they are having none of it.  He has to go so they are throwing everything they can at him, even if it requires some rewriting of history or some stretches of reason. 

The press knows that the truth is only what people believe it to be- repeat anything long enough and it becomes "fact" to many.

Rosie is just a dupe of the press- she sucks this stuff up and then is like a dog with a bone. 

Pretty sad...

Rosie wonders why Paris thinks she may get beat up when Martha didn’t get beat up. Well, Martha went to a country club prison in the mountains of West Virginia. Paris will spend her time at an LA County jail for women. There may be a slightly different type of person in the LA County jail.

I don’t think Paris will get beat up, I think Paris will find someone to protect her and that person or those people who help her may find themselves on the receiving end of her stash of cash. Paris knows how to protect herself.
And many women in prison know how to earn some quick money.  Hopefully they will have Paris sign a contract before they help her.  My guess is she may forget who they are and when they come knocking for their paychecks, she'll have security scoot them right along.

Rosie’s observations of Martha’s fellow inmates: they were mostly women who got busted with their boyfriends or drug offenders. They looked like people in the audience…